Jamie Richards – Reconciling Style and Sustainability

[00:00:10] Dominique: Hello. Welcome to Green Champions.

[00:00:12] Adam: Thanks for joining us in a conversation with real people sharing sustainability success stories.

[00:00:16] Dominique: From entrepreneurs to artists, scientists to activists, this podcast is a platform for green champions to share their stories and plant new ideas. I'm Dominique.

[00:00:25] Adam: and I'm Adam.

[00:00:25] Dominique: Today we are so excited to be joined by Jamie Richards. Jamie is the director of ESG, which is Environment Social Governance at Bansk Beauty, which is home to brands like amika, Eva NYC, and Ethique. Jamie leads the efforts to integrate sustainability into core business strategies. She uses scientific data, sustainability metrics, and consumer technology to give results in an understandable way. So today we're talking about Jamie's journey into this very, very cool role in the world of beauty. So thanks to joining us today, Jamie.

[00:00:56] Jamie: Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

[00:00:58] Dominique: So Jamie, what first sparked your interest in sustainability?

[00:01:02] Jamie: I think my mother would honestly like to take claim for my interest. Growing up, I'm from a really materialistic town in New Jersey, but she was on the Shade Tree Committee and she was in her Jersey accent. She'd be like, "Oh, you know, I always was around the trees growing up, so you love nature."

But I always just had this innate feeling, that like the environment should be taken care of and it was really special. I can't really pinpoint where it would come from. Maybe it was the Shade Tree Committee in my hometown, but I grew up every summer going to sleepaway camp up in the Catskill, just being in the mountains and and it was that. But the point I to, prove, I was always the sustainability geek growing up was when I went to day camp growing up and you would decorate your bunk with photos of your families and friends, I decorated mine with signs that said, 'save the earth' and 'recycle.'

And I was, I was nine. So just, you know, casual 9-year-old interest. It's just always been something I've been really interested in. And just the science of it overall.

[00:02:04] Adam: Got it. Well, and that continued throughout college, right? You studied environmental policy.

[00:02:08] Jamie: It did. It So time to figure out what I wanted to do with my career, I knew that I wanted to do something in the environmental space. And it took me a minute to find my footing when I wanted to enter the the workforce. Even with my education, I started out in environmental science and honestly, within about a month at Ohio State University, I realized that I don't like lab work and I don't think I in in a wetland. And that's okay. Some people belong at an office and I'm one of those people.

And so I transitioned my degree to be what was called environmental policy and the decision making. And for those of you who are like, what the hell is that? It really looked at more of the rules and regulations behind, how you interact with the environment, really more on like a governmental level. And then also the decision making is really the psychology of why the that do in regards to the environment. But really it's looking at a lot of consumer behavior, so why people make the decisions that they do regarding purchasing behavior in the environment.

 I thought maybe I'll do NGL work and nonprofit work. Maybe I'll be a lawyer. But none of it really fit. And I realized that I also, in addition to loving the environment, I love things. I love materialistic things.

And I used to feel, and sometimes still do feel really guilty about that, but it was so much of like how I grew up and the culture that I'm a part of, that I thought, why can I just make the better? And so I decided that I wanted to do sustainable fashion. or But at the time, the puzzled looks I received from people when I said that I wanted to do sustainable fashion was many. And it wasn't so long ago that I graduated. I from university in 2019. And then I entered the job force and I had trouble finding entry level sustainability positions, but I was able to get my foot in the door and develop my career from there. But really, I tried to use my degree to the best of my ability to set myself up for a career that I honestly wasn't even sure existed and just hope to take a leap of faith with it.

[00:04:09] Dominique: I love hearing your story about the wetlands and how that felt like not you, because my first job in college was similar. I was studying like carbon sequestration in wetlands and I remember being like, "This is cool, but this is not for me." 

 You

 seem sure that corporate sustainability was like where your light bulb was. How did you figure that out? Was there an experience, an internship, anything for you that made you realize "Oh, I belong in an office and I'm like really good at this"?

[00:04:37] Jamie: Yeah, so I was taking a course in college. I was actually feeling really lost. I'll start with that. So I was feeling really lost. So it's my junior year of college. It's my beginning of my second semester. So like the clock is ticking, I'm down to a year and a half time left. And I had shadowed a lawyer because I that I wanted to be an environmental lawyer,And I didn't think I wanted to be a lawyer enough to go through three extra years of schooling, and I was feeling really panicked and I took this course. I took the inaugural year of it, it and the name. I know it's not named this anymore because we gave her feedback and we were like, please don't your course. was called of Issues Promoting Behavior. We were watching a documentary in class. I think it Cost. And it was looking at all like the cost of your clothing and the cost of fast fashion. And I think I was sitting in class wearing a fast fashion shirt and just sitting there being like, "You are a hypocrite. You say you're an environmentalist." And you know, although I biked everywhere and like I was vegetarian, all the things, right, that go with the environmental , shtick.

That's the moment where I really wanted to pivot and try to make this better and find my part of the industry. picked up a minor in I think it was like the merchandising school at Ohio State, and I started another degree at Ohio State called EEDS, 

 EEDS is environment, economy, sustainability, and it can do a lot of the different things with this major. But I think the largest focus that most of the students have is corporate social risk, responsibility, corporate sustainability, and community development work and community planning.

So there's a couple different avenues you can go with the major, but I started picking up courses and sustainability metrics, so really looking technical sustainability. What is the impact of a shirt? What's the impact of a bag or a cup, and how does it compare if it's made outta plastic or cotton or even organic cotton?

And really starting to look at the actual environmental impact and the data behind that impact, which I found fascinating and is a skill that I really value and I trained my entire team on today. And everyone on my team has to do technical sustainability because that's really, in my opinion, how you start to sell it in a business. And it's the cost I definitely that the most.

[00:06:53] Dominique: And those classes were just like Jamie's personal electives, or were you taking them as part of a minor?

[00:06:57] Jamie: They were my own personal elective.

[00:07:01] Dominique: Okay. Well, I, I think I wanna acknowledge that, that like kudos for you of being like, I'm gonna look at all the classes available and take what I think is cool because a lot of people don't realize they can do that. It comes at its own costs depending on how many things are on your plate already and all that stuff. But that's awesome that, that made such an impact in your journey.

[00:07:19] Jamie: It did. And when I have students talk to me today, that's the class that I tell them to take, please take course. It'll differentiate you so well on the market if you wanna go into corporate sustainability because it's not taught in many schools. And so it was definitely something that I happened upon that I'm really excited that I did and grateful that I did.

[00:07:38] Adam: It's really neat that you found your own way to the right place. What advice do you give to students who ask you, like, how do I find out my place in the sustainability world?

[00:07:46] Jamie: I tell them that it's okay if you don't get there on the first try. I talk with a lot of students. I actually, I spoke with four students this week who are looking for entry level sustainability jobs, and I did not start out with an entry level sustainability job. I was trying to find one, but really there wasn't any available on the market.

And if they did, they were extremely competitive and wasn't competitive enough. And that's okay. And I would say it's okay foot in the door, which is what I did. And so just because you don't end up where you want to be on the first try doesn't mean you won't end up there eventually.

And the beautiful thing about sustainability is that it could be integrated throughout an entire company. And so even if you're not sitting in a sustainability department, and maybe even your company doesn't have one, 'cause mine didn't when I first started, you still have the opportunity to integrate sustainability within your day-to-day job. There's really easy ways to do it. It doesn't even have to cost you money. If you have the education and the passion and the advocacy for your work, I guarantee someone will probably find the value of it in the company if you're just willing to do it without raising the budget. 

[00:08:50] Adam: You said that you kind of got your foot in the door, like what did that look like, getting your foot in the door in beauty and sustainable fashion? What did you actually do?

[00:08:57] Jamie: So I really applied to just anything that I could, and I ended up getting a job, well, an interview for an assistant purchasing coordinator, which in my company, they don't even have assistant coordinators anymore. You just started at a coordinator level. So I was really like the bottom of the totem pole when I first started. But I ended up on the supply chain team and I was in what some people might call a procurement or sourcing department, and we called it purchasing at the time. And I did all the orders, so I ordered all the bottles and the formulas and was communicating with our contract manufacturers for Amika and Eva NYC, who I still work with today.

And I was able to slowly start to integrate sustainability in the role. I was also hired because of my degree in sustainability. And the senior director purchasing at the time, she was looking for someone to help navigate PCR and bio resins and do you actually, you know, is it worth it to incorporate this in our business? And I was like, "Oh my God. Of course I can do that and I can tell you the exact impact of it and I just will cost you my time." That's what I used to always say. It just cost you my time. And so she's okay.

And so I get hired and I started doing my purchasing work, but I started to also integrate sustainability processes. And so anytime that we were going to launch a new product, I was like, let me do an environmental assessment for you. And I would do that and I would give them good, better, best options and you know, do some cost comparatives for them as well. And slowly we began to make decisions that were environmentally preferred compared to what we used to have. And it was a really slow integration. it didn't happen overnight. It takes a minute to build a sustainability strategy, especially 'cause it wasn't my full-time job and I was just one person.

But the company was really receptive. They saw it as valuation. They saw it as a differentiator. And I became the point person in the company for all things sustainability, whether that be, Jamie, can I recycle this? And I'm not kidding you, and I tell you that this was in office pre-COVID, people would bring their trash up to me, to my desk and be like, can we recycle this? People like bring up like avocado pits. And they were like, can we compost our avocado pits? I became that resource for the company. And when COVID hit, you know, a lot of my sustainability work paused. And I was working for the company for maybe oh, only eight months when COVID hit.

And then I got a call from our chief of staff for the Chief Operating Officer, and she asked me if I wanted to do sustainability full time.

And before I left, I pitched a five year sustainability plan to the CEOs of our company at the time. I ended it with B Corp certification and they were like, what is this? And I told them and they were like, we love it, go for it. And I was like, I don't think you just realized what you asked me to do. That's a big project. I could do it and I would come in early and I'd do B Corp and then I would do my purchasing work for the rest of the day. And I would do that in cycles. And then they said, "Okay, actually during COVID we think that now is the best time to do B Corp. We're gonna move you over full time to do this. But then you need to create your own job afterwards." And I had to write my job description, which I was like, yeah, no problem. But inside I was really nervous because I think, I was like 23 at the time. And I was successful in it. I, I submitted B Corp, both brands, Amika and Eva NYC are B Corp.

And then we started building out carbon emission portfolios and doing carbon accounting, and I was able to hire someone underneath me and start to really integrate sustainability in every aspect of business.

[00:12:19] Adam: I just wanna stop you here 'cause one, like the start of this journey sounds really fascinating, right? You started by becoming a resource in your company where people knew that you cared about this stuff. But you started also putting forth proposals on your own time of "Hey, here's good, better, best that we can do in an environmental friendly way." And so you gave people options in your company of what to do, and that led to this whole B Corp journey, which is fantastic.

[00:12:42] Jamie: Yeah. And I, something I didn't mention but was really essential to this movement was I also started slowly educating people. So anytime we had an all hands committee gathering, I would do a little environmental session, and it could be five minutes on recyclability. It could be a quick thing on what is a carbon emission, what does it mean to have corporate social responsibility?

And I started to very slowly educate the company on these things to get greater buy-in and to, you know, make them feel like they're part of the process. They are part of the process. Sustainability does not live in a silo. And if it doesn't in your company, it's probably struggling a little bit because it shouldn't live in a silo and it's really hard if it does. Everyone should have buy-in. Everyone should feel agency that they could do something in regard to sustainability within a business. And, to this day, one of my greatest successes was my boss was in the purchasing team. She didn't know that I could hear her, but she said, this is gonna be the most sustainable option and you can check with Jamie, but I already know. It's because like we worked together on it and I taught her and I was so thrilled that she said that.

and it was such like a, wonderful moment to be like, Oh my God, she has buy-in. She can talk to this. And really like that was the goal for the whole company. to have some sort of understanding of sustainability because it really didn't exist in industry 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

[00:13:56] Dominique: we talk a lot about impacts for you specifically, but also like different green champions, and I think there's like twofold when you think about impact. There's oh, what thing have I changed or created? But I think there's also that impact of just like wanting people around you start getting on board and watching their light bulbs go on.

So I think that must have been like a very validating moment for you to be like overhearing somebody championing the thing that you've been saying for so long. 

I do want to acknowledge the amount of initiative you've been taking. you are a perfect example of what Green Champions as a podcast is trying to amplify and like showcase, of you literally have changed the course of how a larger organization in like a traditionally unsustainable industry, sees itself as a part of this equation. And that is the magic of when someone is educated and in the right role.

 I also wanna make sure you clarify for our listeners too like, what is ESG and the value of its role and beauty, I know we're gonna unpack a bit more in the next episode, so I'll have you save some of the details. But just for somebody who's okay, cool, you're starting to incorporate B Corp and maybe leading a certification, but then when that's over is your job over?

So what does it mean to really lead ESG in this space?

[00:15:15] Jamie: It's really at a highest level mitigating risk and integrating responsibility into your business. because we know the people out there who are like, ESGs, not business, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm always like, why would you not want it in business? On every day we're talking with suppliers, we're making sure that our ingredients are not harming people all the way throughout the value chain. So the people who are harvesting our ingredients have fair living wages and they're sustainably sourced to in the factories and in production and then to shipping and just making sure that everyone in the environment is treated fairly along the way.

And so, if you are just looking at it at a business aspect and you don't believe in the responsibility of it's our job to do that piece, you should wanna do it as a brand protection piece, if anything, right? But more than that, it's just, it's about also separating yourself from the market.

The beauty industry, it's a really crowded market, and so it's important to be able to set yourself apart. And I think it's a little bit of a shame that we have to set ourselves apart by being really great at sustainability. But that is where we're at and it has led to such fantastic partnerships with our retailers. So even NYC sells in Ulta and in Target, and we work closely with their sustainability teams on the future of their programming and it's just straightened our retail partnerships with our own corporate teams and then Amika sells in Sephora. And we have the same sort of relationship with Sephora as well, where we've actually been able to strengthen our brand partnerships with retailers because our sustainability goals support and align with theirs. And it's just created a different kind of valuation that, you know, we didn't originally expect with sustainability.

so your background is in decision making and you just kind of hit on the fact that you do a lot of marketing towards Gen Z in particular, and I know you must also be incorporating other groups. How has that unique part of your background led to how you think about storytelling with sustainability in particular?

It's actually been a lot of learning and even though my background is in decision making, I find marketing to be the most challenging aspect of my job. It took a lot of environmental research to figure out what the Gen Z consumer was interested in and our whole consumer base. And it really lives a lot within ingredients and transparency, which makes sense for the beauty industry, but there's such a gap between sustainability knowledge and shopping with consumers. Sustainability is still new, not just to the beauty industry, but to a lot of industries overall. And while we're seeing that gap closed each year, there still is a lot of information to fill in. You only have five seconds with your consumer, every second matters. And so how can you deliver the message that we are sustainable quick enough, right, when you have that platform. And it's really important to know also where sustainability stands within decision making.

the first thing that's important to a consumer is typically price and then efficacy, and then it's your differentiator. So that's where sustainability lives. And so it's knowing honestly, the part that you play within the consumer market that you're in and then what are those key indicator words that will grab their attention that will highlight to them this product is sustainable without greenwashing, right, because you, also really wanna tell the truth here, of course. We're not about to hide or try to embellish anything that we're doing. That's never been our MO.

[00:18:28] Adam: It seems like you have a very unique kind of approach to sustainability. How would that compare to somebody who came into sustainability purely through a business route or through a pure kind of environmental science route?

[00:18:40] Jamie: The difference that I see within the market is I don't often see people with sustainability degrees in roles like my own. So I'm director of ESGand a lot of times I see people who have maybe come from research and development roles or innovation chemistry, maybe sometimes even supply chain. And while, they do great in their role, they are missing I think that technical aspect of it. And because of that, I'm able to get really pinpointed in our sustainability strategy.

I was really confused actually when I first started in the industry because I did all the carbon emissions in-house. We did our reduction plans in-house, 'cause I could do carbon accounting and they were all, everyone was like floored by this in the industry. And I was like anybody could do this, you know, as long as you took the class. And I realized that that was not the case at all. And so it was a really good learning moment to recognize that just because I have less work experience than some of my counterparts in the industry in terms of years I've been working, I still bring expertise in a different way. And this technical expertise that I bring to the table has really differentiated how my other counterparts work, where a lot of times, like they might be high level strategy, focusing specifically on what regulations that need to do adhere to in the market where I have a sustainability strategy and it applies the regulations. 

[00:19:58] Dominique: I think something really cool about your journey was that you were honest with yourself from the get go to about your like love for material things and your love for shopping and these things that are like, so okay to have as part of your identity, but like amazing when you compare it with being honest about other values in your life.

[00:20:16] Jamie: if someone's listening and maybe is having a harder time than you being honest with themselves about loving things that feel contradictory to other values in their life. It's hard to shop sustainable. So part of my anger was my motivation that that really made me wanna get in and change the system and shake things up. It really bothers me that sustainability is a luxury. It's not accessible to everybody, and I think that's really unfair. There are ways to make it more accessible, right? Like shop secondhand and reuse and repair. But a lot of times if you wanna buy a new good that is quote unquote "sustainable," it has a higher price point. And it is sometimes more expensive to do the right thing, to be more sustainable. But it doesn't always have to be.

And there's like ways to get creative and work around it. And so if someone is feeling like me where they love things and they love the environment too, there are definitely ways that you can approach sustainability at whatever level you're looking to do it at. But I would say take that motivation and try to change the system.

I don't think you need to stick to the status quo when you're in business. Certainly something that you should follow, like a process. But I always say to challenge it, there's always another way.

[00:21:27] Adam: Now you mentioned just finding this motivation to keep going. So when you think about climate change and sustainability at a personal level, like what keeps you going?

[00:21:36] Jamie: What keeps me going is the fact that even on a low level, we've been able to already make a difference. And seeing the difference 'cause sometimes sustainability could take a long time has given me hope. But I think the thing that gives me the most hope is that people still continue to want to do this. And the more people that want to do this, the more it's going to be available on the market or the more that even businesses will create this on the market. And it's tough right now, like we don't need to dance around it. A lot of federal programs have been cut, and it could be a really scary world if you're trying to get into the sustainability field, but what gives me the most focus that business keeps going.

Sustainability is part of business out and it keeps going. My budgets haven't been cut. I still see jobs in the market for sustainability. There's a bunch of regulations coming out of the EU and as well as the United States on a state level that require your business to engage in sustainable business practices. And that's so exciting because whether a business believes in it or not, you have to do it. You hope that they believe in it, but again, even if not, it doesn't matter.

They have to do it. And that gives me such hope because businesses drive the majority of the impact on the planet, right? Like the most sustainable thing to do is nothing, but none of us are gonna do nothing. And it's so exciting to me that just because one place might be on pause doesn't mean another place doesn't keep going.

And I'm so happy to be part of the movement that keeps going.

[00:22:57] Dominique: I love the way you balance like that big picture view with also like your own autonomy and ability to contribute and make your own change. I'm so excited for next time when we get to unpack what you're doing, specifically in the beauty world. How can listeners support you in the work that you're doing and keep up with some of these ESG efforts?

[00:23:16] Jamie: Shop our brands.

[00:23:18] Dominique: Love that. 

[00:23:18] Adam: I work with three haircare brands right now, Amika, Eva NYC, and Ethique and they're all in Sephora and Ulta. But if you're looking to connect with me further, the best way to reach out is LinkedIn and I do respond. And you can find me, Jamie Richards and definitely add one of the brands I work for, next to my name, because if not, like a thousand British males are gonna pop up underneath my name because my name's Jamie Richards, and I realize that I have just like a British boy name. So.

[00:23:42] Dominique: Well thank you again, Jamie. I appreciate the way that you have approached your personal life and career with like honesty and initiative and even just the confidence that you have had to be like, Hey, I can help with that, or I can build this let me show you. I think that's just such an amazing example of how a journey gets started. And I also am just so grateful that you have worked on a team that has seen your potential and taken advantage of that 'cause obviously that's paid off, 

[00:24:10] Jamie: Well, thank you. Yeah. I always say if the one advice I impart with is advocate for your work.

[00:24:16] Adam: As always, our guests have found a unique way to champion sustainability. We're here to put real names and stories behind the idea that no matter your background, career or interests, you really can contribute in the fight against climate change.

[00:24:28] Dominique: You can find our episodes at thegreenchampions.com. If you wanna stay in the loop, give us a review and follow us on your favorite podcast platform. If you have questions about climate change or sustainability, you can reach us on our website, thegreenchampions.com. Our music is by Zayn Dweik. Thanks for listening to Green Champions. We'll dig into the second half of Jamie's success story in our next episode.