Kristan Uhlenbrock – Creating a New Institute at the Denver Museum of Nature & Science

[00:00:10] Adam: Hello and welcome to Green Champions.

[00:00:12] Dominique: Thanks for joining us in a conversation with real people sharing sustainability success stories.

[00:00:16] Adam: From entrepreneurs to artists, scientists to activists, this podcast is a platform for green champions to share their stories and plant new ideas. I'm Adam.

[00:00:24] Dominique: And I'm Dominique.

[00:00:25] Adam: Today we are joined by Kristan Uhlenbrock. She leads the Institute for Science and Policy at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science, where she works to bring thoughtful science into public conversation and decision making.

She's a scientist, writer and communicator who started in marine science and helps bridge science policy and community through storytelling and podcasts. In case you missed it, last time we chatted about her journey into sustainability. We talked about her time on a yacht and her time getting into policy, talking to mayors and elected officials, and getting her way into DC.

So today we're gonna dive into Kristen's champion story, which is actually about founding the Institute for Science and Policy. And with that, Kristen, welcome back.

[00:01:05] Kristan: Thank you so much for having me again. This is a lovely conversation that I had with you the last time around, so I'm looking forward to this time around as well.

[00:01:12] Dominique: Could you introduce us to the Institute for Science and Policy? What do you do and what aspects of the Denver Museum of Nature and Science do you focus on? 

[00:01:22] Kristan: Yeah, absolutely. The Institute for Science and Policy is part of the Denver Museum of Nature and Science, which we've already shared. And we're quite unique in that space. There's actually not another Institute for Science and Policy that exists in the model that is associated in affiliated with a large nature and science museum and center.

And so our whole mission is about how do we make better decisions as a society where we can bring science and evidence into those decisions. And that's a pretty lofty goal and mission that we have as an institution. But a lot of that means that we end up working with people. We end up working with decision makers and scientists and community leaders and many others on some of the most wicked pressing challenges facing our state of Colorado. So I am based here in Denver, Colorado, obviously with the Denver Museum of Nature and Science. And so a lot of our work is about what's happening in our own backyard in the state of Colorado. And we have been around since 2018 is when we officially got established.

And we have been, like I say, building the plane as we've been flying it all the way along of how do you do this work in a way that is nonpartisan, that brings people together, and has these really hard, difficult conversations where people can start working on solutions and progress.

[00:02:37] Dominique: Wow. First of all, you know, that's a lot. And it's also really notable that that is so unique. How did you get this idea to create this new thing? How did it get started?

[00:02:47] Kristan: So let me give you the story of how this came about because it is not my idea. I just had the privilege of falling into this position to be the first leader for the organization. But there was a pretty significant election that happened in 2016. And in 2017 there were a lot of conversations around the growing politicization of science. And this organization and institution really took a moment to be like, well, what is our role? We don't normally engage in these public policy, these social issues.

And we have a great president, CEO, his name is George Sparks and George, along with a number of members of the museum leadership team and some trustees and members of the community were just kind of shooting ideas and brainstorms around about what this organization could do.

And so, he conceptualized the Institute for Science and Policy in 2018 as an idea and then I was hired in 2019. That's our origin story.

I started in '19. And hired two colleagues that year. So we ended up being a small team of three. And then COVID happened in early 2020 as we were just getting our feet under us. We had just launched a website. We had a couple of convenings and all these meetings. And I say this with a smile right now, knowing it was an extremely hard complicated time in our life. 

Not to mention all the lives that were lost, but I remember those conversations of like, what are we doing? What do we do right now? We were such a in-person, place-based entity, and then the world shut down and we have this pandemic. And we were like, well, you can't be an Institute for Science and Policy and not engage in COVID-19 conversations.

And so we started to engage in COVID-19 conversations and started to really get engaged in public outreach and public education and programming around that time. 

[00:04:35] Dominique: That is so interesting. What was that gap that you noticed in your area and on a national scale that you were trying to fill by building this organization?

[00:04:44] Kristan: Yes, so the gap that I noticed is that how our decisions get made, particularly at the state and the local level. Having spent time in DC for about 10 years and having moved to Colorado and shifted my focus away from more of the national decision making down to the state and local decision making was that there is and always will be a gap between scientific understanding and how we're making decisions. That gap will continue to exist because science continues to unfold. It's a living, breathing process of information and knowledge sharing. What we know at this point in time and how we use that for decisions is actually quite complicated.

And if you think about, there's a circle about how public policy and decisions get made, right from concept to build development to stakeholder engagement and feedback to program implementation and all of these things, right?

So if you think about this policy making wheel of what we think about and the policy process, there's all these different inserting points for where scientific information evidence can be inserted into the process. And oftentimes they're actually not being engaged in all of those different ways. And so that will always be a gap of where and how can we make better informed decisions as a society. And so I think that's not a solution, that is cut and dry and we will ever fill that gap. But the more we can apply people and resources and smart processes to our decision making things, then the more we're gonna hopefully be making better informed decisions. We often say science is just a piece of that decision making pie. It is not the thing that is the pure decision making pie, but it is a very essential piece to making really thoughtful, informed decisions.

[00:06:28] Dominique: And I'm very glad you're doing that.

[00:06:30] Kristan: Thank you. I hope many other people are too.

[00:06:38] Adam: You briefly touched on bringing the COVID-19 issue to the public discourse, but I'm curious, what other issues have you helped bring to the public conversation in Colorado?

[00:06:47] Kristan: When we first started, a lot of my strength and background has been in climate change and climate science that is coming out of the ocean science, world and community. I spent most of my career in DC at the intersection of broader earth system science challenges and specifically on climate change and climate science. And so that had been a lot of my backing for about 10 plus years before going into this role. And so I came into this role with a strong interest and a strong focus on climate change as just kind of the primary issue that I think is one of our biggest wicked problems, and also where I had a lot of more expertise and knowledge and connections and issues. And is a huge priority for the state of Colorado under the current governor and other members of the state of Colorado and our climate goals. And so the institute, that was kind of our foundational bread and butter was working in climate and energy.

But like I said, we work on lots of other natural resource issues. And then COVID happened and I was like, I don't know anything really about public health but you can't be an Institute for Science and Policy and probably not engage in this conversation. So the institute, particularly because of who I am as a person, but the work that we do is while we have these broad issue areas, we are a little bit in that generalist category, right?

There is a need for a lot of generalists in these really wicked problems. And so while we aren't just an institute focused on this very specific narrow thing, we are much more broad and general in a lot of the issues that we work on. And because of that means partnerships are extremely critical for us.

And so I partner tremendously with most of our research universities and individual researchers and scientists in other organizations outside of the academic sphere too, when we need that deep technical expertise on issues. And so the institute is more of this broader framework hitting on a lot of the cutting edge issues happening in our state, and that allows us to be nimble and adaptable and to really focus in on what decisions are happening right now? What are the key priorities for the state? What are some big controversies that maybe require some greater nuance or some greater depth to understanding or some greater engagement around? And so that's kind of how we've been building the Institute.

[00:08:58] Dominique: Can you share some examples of the outcomes of some of those issues that you've brought to the table and built these wonderful partnerships to address and move the needle on?

[00:09:08] Kristan: Yeah, how do you move the needle in anything these days is such a wonderful challenge.

[00:09:13] Dominique: Sometimes the needle gets taken from you, but you can try to move it.

[00:09:18] Kristan: Measuring social impact is so complicated because we're all often contributory factors. We're all a spoke in the wheel. We all have a piece of that pie on these really big, hard problems. And so I can talk about some examples of the type of work that we do and how it contributes to what I think are so many other organizations and people adding into that conversation that helps, quote unquote, "move that needle" and make progress on a lot of these issues.

A lot of the Institute's early work and ongoing work is founded in what we call as convenings and lots of people do convenings. And our convening model is a working model that we adapt for many different flavors of types of workshops and meetings, but we like to get, say it's a group of 20 different people, different walks of life, different levels of background, experience, organizational affiliations, identities in a room, spending many months, often talking about issues in a really deep way where we start to build some common ground, some common understanding, and some common language where we start setting forward really big goals.

Like what do we want this future to look like? And then we start to work backwards from this sort of shared goal and shared vision into actions, ideas, pathways that people can work on in their own work and in their own lives, right? So we end up providing tools and resources and space for people to have really hard conversations that often they don't get to have in the settings that they're in. Maybe they're a publicly elected official, or maybe they're in a role where they don't get to engage with a tribal nation, or they don't get to engage with that sort of company or that nonprofit doesn't get to engage with that sort of research scientist. And so we try to do these really highly curated groups of people who don't normally get to sit down and problem solve together and let them problem solve together.

And so we've done this on a number of issues, whether it's about water resource and water management here in Colorado, we've done this around decarbonization in some of our state's climate and energy goals. And we've started to do this a little bit in some air quality work as well too. And so those are some examples of the type of work that we do and the spaces that we bring people together.

We have a new policy fellowship program that we are so excited for. I can briefly touch on that if that's helpful?

[00:11:41] Dominique: Please do.

[00:11:42] Kristan: Yeah. So, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, AAAS, has had a program for more than 50 years in Washington DC. And many scientific societies are involved with this as well too, where they place scientists in the halls of Congress, in the executive branch as well as the judicial branch.

There have been thousands of these scientists who have gotten experience and have helped provide their expertise to our decision makers for more than 50 years. It is a landmark program. It is so successful and has been helping people forge pathways into public policy if they wanna stay or into government or help our decision makers have readily access to these wonderful folks who want to contribute in a public service way improving their technical expertise.

Well, some movement has been happening for a number of years to do this at the state level. California has been the first state to do it. And there has been a coalition of states since then that have been talking about how do we bring that sort of technical expertise to our state legislatures, which are often under-resourced, very small.

Every state legislature is a state legislature. We're all unique, right? We have a legislature that supports our state. So in Colorado, our general assembly, our state legislatures, our members serve 120 days in session. So we're a part-time legislature. So they're kind of working full-time, but these are part-time role legislators, but these are really critical people who are making decisions that impact all of us in our state of Colorado. And so we have created a Colorado science and Technology policy program and Fellowship. The fellows are starting in October, 2025. And we will be placing four fellows to serve full-time for at least one year in the Colorado General Assembly, working side by side with our non-partisan research office called Legislative Council Services, which is our research office.

And so we have four fellows. One of them is working on Energy and Climate. We have a fellow working on Natural Resources including water, wildfire, economic development. We have another fellow working on AI and Technology Policy, and we have a fourth fellow that's working on Public Health and Mental Health and Human services.

And so to give our elected officials direct access to the scientists who are highly skilled, highly trained, great communicators and eager to serve is going to be a really great program. And so we're really excited and honored to be launching that landmark program for the state of Colorado. This fall, we'll kind of pilot that for three years and we'll see how that goes. And if it's successful, we really hope that we'll continue on with that program.

[00:14:13] Dominique: That is amazing the way that you're bringing new folks into the fold and like creating this really educational experience for them, but really hands-on. And I also think just the work that you're doing, it is so incredibly important right now. So I'm really glad that you're doing this, but you're literally making the space that people don't think is possible. But to have like real, cross-functional conversations about big, stressful issues.

[00:14:38] Adam: And you don't only do it through the Institute, you also do this through your podcast, "Laws of Notion." And I'd love for you to tell us just a little bit about what inspired you to start your podcast.

[00:14:47] Kristan: Yeah, absolutely. So many of us know the power of story and it takes so much effort to put these stories together. So kudos for you all for the work that you're doing for your podcast.

And our podcast Laws of Notion came about. So the person I hired right after I got started is a person named Trent Noss.

He was a managing editor, also a science writer and science communicator like myself. And him and I were talking about the power of story to connect with people on these really difficult issues. And we know that science doesn't change people's minds. We know that people don't love data and facts being presented at them. People remember story. And people can connect and care through story.

And so we were like, well, how can we use our knowledge, the power of story, in a way that feels truthful to the institute's mission and vision and helps us dig deeper into a lot of these issues that we work on that I mentioned? And so we thought our approach to storytelling would be like focusing on a timely issue that's currently happening in our State, but through the lens of something that's happening in a community and where and then how do we pull out and bring in some of the greater nuance and deeper learning and understanding around what are these often really complicated issues.

Sometimes very highly political in a way that builds empathy and a deeper understanding. We like to say we try to push against our preconceived beliefs and notions and make us think critically about the world. And so that is our goal with Laws of Notion. 

 And since then, we're in season five right now. But our approach is to really center it in those lived experiences and then bring it out into larger contexts about what we know about decisions and science and all these other factors that go into it. And like I said, we often aren't here to tell people what to think or what to do. We're here to get people to just think a little bit more deeply about these issues.

[00:16:42] Dominique: Yeah and congrats on season five. That's incredible work. And I also wanna share for listeners who've not listened to Laws of Notion yet, I'm sure after this they're definitely going to. But I wanna share that you curate such like intelligent episodes and like curated content. I just think it's like so well produced and very impressive. And I appreciate the real deep topics that you dive into in the way that you explain them. You were a storyteller before you were a podcaster, and I'm curious, like, why do you think that medium podcasting works for these complex science topics and how do you think about crafting episodes?

[00:17:24] Kristan: There's a strong power in audio. We're a very visual world and there's lots of videos and lots of imagery and pictures are wonderful. There's something super beautiful and powerful about audio because you get to create this beautiful picture in your own mind. And so we rely on that for podcasts. This is what we've leaned into, of letting people engage in a content as much as we can ground our season and our episode in place and scenes is something we try to do. And then there's a lot of intellectual thinking and things like that too. But we try to take moments to let people feel themselves in a place and hear someone's story.

Podcast has been great because it's so much flexible, right? You can listen to this in your car, you can listen to this on your run or your gym activity or whatever. And so it was a new medium for both myself and Trent when we kicked off on it. And we had some great partners with House of Pod, Cat Jaffee and some others who really kind of showed us the ropes of this is what it means to bring a podcast to life. As you alluded to, it is a highly produced podcast.

[00:18:28] Adam: We spend many months researching, many months reporting, many months in production and post-production. You shared a bit about, you know, telling a story about coal mining communities. Is there another story from the podcast that really stayed with you?

[00:18:42] Kristan: So many. It is actually quite emotional thinking back on it because I've had so many deep emotional rich moments with people who are very vulnerable at sometimes the most hardest points in their life. Because a wildfire ripped through a community and people didn't know, you know, whether their house was going to survive or their neighbors or what they were gonna do. Or if their farm was gonna make it because they were gonna run out of water. And so to me, every season has one of or multiple of these moments. So season two on water was one of those really powerful stories where there's a lot of trade-offs. It's a lot of who has power and influence, who's making decision? Do people even know where their water comes from? Right? And here in the west, like we pipe water over the mountain range, down to the population areas of Denver and the front range of Colorado.

Like this water is coming from miles and hundreds of miles away. And there are communities that have built their life around this water, and yet we have greater resources here on the front range because of our growing populations and our growing demand. And so these bring up highly ethical, highly moral, highly conflicting challenges and issues of how do we make a decision with a lot of competing values, a lot of competing interest in a modern world that's faced with a changing climate, changing populations, changing economies. And so we're in the messiness of it. So every season, extremely messy. Every season, I have moments of deep, deep appreciation and understanding for how challenging this issues are and the people who are trying to make decisions and do the best that they can. And at the same time I'm like, oh my goodness, did we miss something? You know, because these stories are so complex.

[00:20:26] Dominique: I mean, I think that's such a compelling reason to listen. And if someone's listening to this and it's like, "Oh, I wanna go explore this podcast. It sounds so interesting and compelling," where do you recommend they start? Is there a good first episode or how would you recommend a new listener begins?

[00:20:42] Kristan: So each season is somewhere between five to eight or nine episodes. So each season has a different length on it. And so I would say start with what your passion or interest is. So if you're interested in energy transition, climate change, and coal, maybe start with season one.

Season one is 'Coal at Sunset.' Season two is 'Water Under Pressure.' If you're interested in air pollution and air quality, that is season three. That's 'Clearing the Air.' If you're interested in the wildfire crisis we have and the challenges with wildfire here in the West, that would be season four, 'United by Fire.' And then if you're interested in conservation, specifically species conservation, I would recommend you hold tight if you want. We'll be dropping season five here which is focused on, it's called 'Gray Territory.' It is the return of wolves to Colorado. We were the first state by ballot referendum to vote to bring back an apex predator to the state.

And so five years ago, voters voted on the ballot to bring back a species that was not living in any sort of great capacity in the state. And so we are unpacking this story, which is probably the most political and sensitive story that we've ever taken on. And that one is dropping this fall, 'Gray Territory.' So I would say follow where your initial interest is, and then if you enjoy listening, you've got some other seasons to listen to.

[00:22:03] Adam: That's wonderful. What's the most important thing that storytelling adds to collective action? 

[00:22:08] Kristan: I think story is one of the most powerful tools that we have as a species. It's how we build connection. It's how we learn. It's how we build understanding, and I think storytelling is the biggest, strongest, best tools for anyone who wants to build and make change. And it doesn't have to be complicated stories. It doesn't have to be large platforms. It doesn't have to be the most highly polished sort of thing. It can be the story that you have with your neighbor where you share an experience. Or you share a passion or you listen to someone else's story. I would offer the listening to someone else's story is probably one of the most influential changes you can have because then you get to learn what that person cares about and then you start to build a relationship. And then hopefully you can share stories as well too, and you can start to build those relationships within ultimately is what leads to change.

[00:23:01] Dominique: Extra amazing in these very trying times that we're in when problems feel really big. And in also in the interest of feeling that way, I'm curious, looking ahead, what's next for you and the Institute that's making you feel optimistic?

[00:23:16] Kristan: For the Institute specifically, when things feel really rough nationally, the fact that I get to be in a community, in a state, on the ground, really local is what gives me a lot of hope. I can walk out my door, go down, have a meeting and a coffee with someone else.

And every time I turn around, I am talking and meeting with someone new who cares about their community, who cares about their state. Who is trying to do good. And when I think that feels like there's turmoil and chaos in the world, that there is so many folks who are actually doing good things, and that's what gives me hope.

We will continue to build relationships, build connections to try to keep scaling and growing the work as best as we can, as much as is needed. And so I'm excited for the next years ahead and where and how we can make this impact in the place that we live, which is our state of Colorado.

And really uphold the great work that can be done in a truly nonpartisan way. In a way that brings people together to a table and they get down to work and they work on hard problems and they're trying to do good. And I think that's what gives me hope, is I'd see people every day in my life doing that sort of work. And I have the privilege of learning from them or getting to work with them or share with them what that experience is like.

[00:24:35] Dominique: Thank you for also existing and bringing us hope. I mean, this conversation alone has made my day 10 times better. But also like, I think has reminded me of how much hope there is in the world and how much amazing things we could be doing when we allow ourselves to work at the intersection of different conversations.

I love your optimism as somebody who has been deep in these conversations. It's just a really nice reminder that we can be highly educated and be hopeful. And I'm really grateful for the work that you do and the stories you tell. So just thank you so much for bringing that to us today and to our audience. But I'm so glad that you create something that we can share. How can people connect with you and listen in?

[00:25:16] Kristan: Thank you so much for that. If people are interested in learning more about the podcast, they can visit that at lawsofnotion.org. It's available on all the podcast platforms, so just look and search for Laws of Notion, as in 'notion' as in our ideas. If you're interested in the work of the Institute, institute.dmns.org or you can Google the Institute for Science and Policy at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science and find out where our work is. And our podcast is linked through that as well too 'cause it is a project of the work that we do at the Institute.

[00:25:44] Adam: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for joining us today.

[00:25:47] Kristan: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:25:49] Adam: As always, our guests have found a unique way to champion sustainability. We are here to put real names and stories behind the idea that no matter your background, career, or interests, you really can contribute in the fight against climate change.

[00:25:59] Dominique: You can find our episodes or reach us at thegreenchampions.com. If you wanna stay in the loop, give us a review and follow us in your favorite podcast platform. If you wanna support the podcast, you can donate on our website as well. Our music is by Zayn Dweik. Thanks for listening to Green Champions. We'll be digging into our next sustainability success story in our next episode.