Nathan McKee - Unpacking the Complexities of Sustainable Packaging

[00:00:10] Adam: Hello and welcome to another episode of Green Champions.

[00:00:13] Dominique: Thanks for joining us in a conversation with real people sharing sustainability success stories.

[00:00:17] Adam: From entrepreneurs to artists, scientists to activists, this podcast is a platform for green champions to share their stories and plant new ideas. I'm Adam.

[00:00:25] Dominique: And I'm Dominique, and this episode is part of a mini-series in partnership with the Midwest Regional Sustainability Summit, which celebrates collaborative climate solutions in the Midwest region of the United States.

[00:00:34] Adam: In this mini-series, you'll join us in virtually attending the annual summit and meeting a few of the hundred speakers and key storytellers from this year's event. 

Today we're joined by Nathan McKee. He is a sustainability analyst at Trayak.

Trayak is a mission-driven company helping brands design and manufacture more sustainable packaging through tools like a lifecycle assessment, circularity metrics, and their eco impact platform. So today we're gonna be talking about how packaging innovation plays a critical role in fighting climate change and what it means to go beyond the box in sustainable strategy.

Thank you for joining us today, Nathan.

[00:01:05] Nathan: Thank you.

[00:01:06] Dominique: Nathan, if you wanna kick us off and tell us about your role at Trayak, like what does it really mean to be a sustainability analyst?

[00:01:12] Nathan: Sure. So I'm the sustainability analyst manager here at Trayak, and that just means that I help lead the sustainability analyst team. In Trayak, we do both software solutions and consulting services. Our major product is called the EcoImpact Platform, or some people know us by EcoImpact-COMPASS or just Compass, and that's really a sustainability solution focused on products and packaging made to be used by packaging engineers, product managers, sustainability experts. Not those who may have sustainability as their full-time job, but really people who use sustainability for decision making or to do some of their other things. 

So I've been with Trayak for three or four years now. And I work with clients across various industries. So we serve mostly industry leaders who care about sustainability, whether that's in the consumer packaged goods, CPGs, food and beverage, pharmaceutical, medical device, apparel. So we run the gamut really. And even people who are manufacturers of packaging themselves who are actually making the packaging. 

[00:02:23] Adam: you're not actually making the packaging yourself at Trayak. Correct?

[00:02:26] Nathan: Right. Yeah. We don't produce any packaging, we don't produce any products, but rather we really facilitate the sustainability goals that companies have themselves, or even meeting regulatory requirements. So regulatory compliance. For example, one thing that's been in the news lately is EPR fees. So Extended Producer Responsibility fees. And that's another example of regulations that companies have to abide by that we help with.

[00:02:52] Dominique: Can you give a little EPR 101 for listeners? What does that mean? Why is it topical right now?

[00:02:57] Nathan: EPR fees or EPR schemes are basically policy approaches that states and even countries around the globe take to incentivize producers, manufacturers to make better packaging and also add fuel to building recycling infrastructure, meeting municipal goals, like increasing collection rates of the packaging, and overall, ideally, putting more of that burden, so to speak, on the producer of the product and not so much heavily on the consumer. Of course we all pay bills to have our trash taken and so some of that burden goes back onto the producer and to incentivize better actions ideally.

[00:03:39] Dominique: What is your personal background like? So you mentioned you've been at Trayak for three years. What were you doing before? I wanna get to know what perspective you come from in all of this and why you care about it.

[00:03:50] Nathan: Sure. I grew up in Lexington, Kentucky, came to Cincinnati to go to UC, and that's where I got my bachelor's in environmental studies. What really brought me into the whole sustainability industry is climate change. And that's really, that was my big passion. Growing up, I remember going to see the Inconvenient Truth movie. That was a big game changer. 

So climate change has always been my background passion, but I went to UC and, studied the environment. And my first job was actually working at a manufacturer of medical devices here in Cincinnati. While I was there, I learned a lot about the insides of a manufacturing plant including how they take raw materials and turn them into a product, how many hands touch that process. Also, some about the packaging. They did packaging of the product to the finished pallet in that same factory. And so I learned about this. And that was a really fun job. I learned a lot. I mean, I am totally grateful for that position and all that I learned. And I also learned about continuous improvement and lean manufacturing. But then I also wanted to get more into sustainability.

So that's when I found Trayak, which is located in Mason, Ohio. And it's really a unique company in that we facilitate sustainability, we do lifecycle assessment, which I'm sure we'll talk more about. But that's how I came here and that's where I've been since.

[00:05:17] Adam: Well, let's dive into that lifecycle assessment. For people who aren't familiar, can you describe what that is and why it matters?

[00:05:23] Nathan: Sure. So Lifecycle Assessment or LCA is a standardized and reliable way to calculate environmental impact. It looks at the whole lifecycle of a product, package or something else. 

So what do I mean by lifecycle? Well, from a product's journey from start to finish, you need to extract raw materials, in packaging that could be, where does the plastic come from? Fossil fuels. Or where does the paper come from? It comes from trees. So you have to extract that raw material, convert it into a usable package. So, for example, the corrugated boxes that we all use, they have to process that, turn it from paper into that box, and that's the manufacturing that goes into it. Or, other processes for plastic, you do injection, blow molding or something for bottles.

Also, the transportation that it takes throughout the supply chain and then end of life, is it recycled? Is it landfilled? So all of these are the steps that a product takes, and these are also where environmental impacts come about, right? All these steps create emissions. And so, of course, as consumers, we care a lot about recycling and for good reason. But by the time it gets to you or to the store and then you take it home, it's actually really towards the end of its lifecycle. It's towards the end of its journey. 

And so there's all this other stuff that happens before a consumer sees it which packaging professionals or sustainability professionals want to address and improve upon. So lifecycle assessment is a way to analyze the environmental impacts. But more than that, to identify hotspots so that they can address issues. Where should you focus your attention on? And also for, again, regulatory compliance or reporting. What is my carbon footprint? This all has to do with LCA.

[00:07:07] Adam: So is this like a certification, like LEED would be in the construction industry or is this more of a framework of here's the things that you need to analyze?

[00:07:14] Nathan: It's more of a framework and a method.There are also certifications, or standards that people follow that are well known. You could even have a panel of experts review your LCA and that's a gold standard for making marketing claims on some of these environmental things or sustainability claims too.

[00:07:33] Adam: So this lives in the domain of people who are packaging goods, and this is a way for them to analyze, "Hey, here's that environmental impact from start to finish that the whole journey of my goods have."

[00:07:42] Nathan: Exactly. And then what to do about it and should I change a material here? Should I add recycled content? What should I do about it? 

[00:07:50] Adam: So you're really at the intersection of this packaging and environmental data. 

What do you get really excited about around this environmental data?

[00:07:56] Nathan: I am really excited about the impact that I can make. I feel like I really do a lot of good work for the environment in my own small way. So whenever we can work with a company to make real differences, I think one example that people may be familiar with is Amazon's SIOC or 'Ship in Own Container' program. So, several years ago you would see these pictures online of the toothbrush taped to the side of a cardboard box, right? Because it was shipped in this massive box. 

Amazon got a lot of flack for that. this program says, well, "Why should Amazon double package something or take it out and repackage it to sell to the customer when the manufacturer, the original manufacturer, they can package it themselves and it would just do the exact same thing?" It would get to the end destination without any damage. And they're continuing to roll that program out. I believe in the past it was called frustration-free packaging, but it's that same program, and that's one example.

[00:08:52] Dominique: You've talked a lot about data driving sustainability. We all know there's like data gaps, just in the world broadly. can you share about how hard certain things are or aspects of the LCA or other impact assessments that you do? How hard it is to find the data you need versus how easy it is? Are there certain areas where we have more environmental data gap and how do you handle that?

[00:09:14] Nathan: So the good thing is that there's a lot of good data out there. For example, how do we know the environmental impact of PET or HDPE or any plastic, right, or cardboard? Again, how do we know the environmental impact? Well, we know that because there are good data sets out there that exist, that people have been working on for years and years that are internationally recognized, and they're industry averages too.

Where there are data gaps, think of brand new materials. Like packaging made out of mushrooms, right? Or packaging made out of seaweed or kelp, right? There may not be information there, or if there is information, well, it may not be a full like industrial scale program. So there's always gaps around, but we're constantly trying to add new information to be made available to our clients. And year over year that those data sets are also updated. 

[00:10:04] Adam: Can you give us an example of what a project with a client might look like, where you help them move towards more circular packaging solutions? 

[00:10:12] Nathan: for our clients, what they're doing on a day-to-day basis is design. Design work on their packaging. So they're trying to simulate what the package that they have now looks like, and then trying to compare that and see what trade-offs exist to some alternative that they're trying to improve upon.

So there's a lot of sustainability strategies that packaging experts employ. Could be, relatively low hanging fruit. Could we just make the package lighter, thinner, reduce some gaps, some headspace, make the package smaller. There's also perhaps, you could call more advanced sustainability strategies like refill and reuse where you're actually trying to compare a single use so you know, the normal throwaway items we have compared to something that could be reused many times over.

So there's lots of sustainability strategies that come into play, and you can weigh trade offs. Maybe the carbon footprint goes down but maybe the cost goes up. Or maybe you switch over to a paper-based and your another metric of sustainability is water consumption. Maybe that goes up. If there was a silver bullet for packaging a one size fits all, we would all be using it today, right?

So this paper versus plastic is one example. It's hard to say what the end all be all is. And from Trayak's perspective, we are also agnostic when it comes to, "should you go this way or that way?". Instead we say, " follow the data". Look at your packaging in specific or your product and see where it takes you.

[00:11:44] Adam: Has there been any packaging that you've come across that you're really excited about, that you're like, "Hey, here's something new that people really don't know about and ticks a lot of interesting boxes"?

[00:11:53] Nathan: There's always those new type of materials that come out and those are awesome and very cool to see.What I'm also excited about personally is what sustainable packaging can do for the rest of our society, right?

For example, reusable packaging. Now reusable packaging has been around as an idea and being implemented in various ways for a long time. But maybe it hasn't caught on quite as much as some people would hope. So I think reusable packaging is gonna reshape how we interact with our products. You go to the store every week and you pick up all sorts of products and then you toss them. 

Or some of them you recycle, right? But can we do anything differently? And actually, reusable packaging is kind of interesting too from a sustainability perspective because when you create or try to design a reusable package, more often than not, you're having to make a thicker, more robust package to live up to multiple uses. And so that in and of itself might increase your emissions. And also you may have to return the packaging and it might have to go back to the manufacturer, it might be washed or sanitize. All that stuff is adding impact. 

So then how do you get that back down and actually make it better and more beneficial? So you have to weigh the benefits and the negatives. So when you look at those, there's kind of a fine line between making something that's a lot better or maybe a lot worse, or maybe you're just looking for that break even point.I'll say too, even outside of the packaging world, like the EPR fees that we've been talking about, they're incentivizing, making more sustainable packaging choices. And a lot of that or some of those priorities for those states is recyclability, right? They want all packaging to be recyclable. 

You spoke earlier about kind of what the maybe consumer side would be most surprised to think about in terms of we think about the recyclability of products as being really important, but when you really take a step back like that LCA assessment really shows you that that's like the end of the journey. 

[00:13:53] Dominique: Is there any like common misconception that you usually have to go over with clients that kind of causes like an aha moment or maybe is like a common education point for helping to open their eyes to some of these things?

[00:14:04] Nathan: Trade-offs is a huge part of what we do because again, there's maybe no one-size-fits-all perfect solution. And with any sustainability strategy, there might be trade-offs. So think about a really lightweight film, like a pouch that you might buy at the store. And then compare to that to a plastic box. 

Now, from a carbon emission standpoint, it's quite possible that the pouch performs better because it's so lightweight. But then you think, "Well, the pouch is really not recyclable. Or not today, it's not easily recyclable, right?" and then the rigid container is likely to get recycled. That's just one example of a trade-off. 

So, lifecycle assessment and the traditional LCA indicators like carbon footprint, that's one part of the whole picture. Other parts could be the recyclability or if you're trying to use recycled content, which is important for circularity. 

So there will be trade-offs. And you have to weigh them. So sometimes the results of the study are not what people expect. If we've done our job though, the data's solid and it is what it is. But that doesn't mean that there aren't other factors to consider. 

You asked about data gaps. So I'll give you another example. We've talked about carbon emissions. That's one type of LCA indicator. Water consumption. There's a few of them. One gap is micro and macro plastics or marine litter, you know, microplastics. Traditionally, there's not been a good way to really analyze that in an LCA context, but that's starting to change. And actually there's more data than ever to perform some analysis. So that's huge. 

So data, the science behind it does get better over time, but the results are not always as you expect. As a consumer, I'll also say, people may have heard of relatively large companies maybe backtracking on their sustainability goals. Whenever I hear that, I would love to also know why they're doing that because they're probably dealing with trade-offs, right? It's probably not that they're just abandoning, all the work that they've been doing for many years, but maybe it hasn't worked out quite as they had hoped. 

[00:16:08] Dominique: I am curious to ask you if someone's listening, and maybe isn't convinced that like packaging is that impactful, 

 do you have any like stats or ways for listeners to picture the volume of impact that is held within the packaging industry just to help us see kind of why this is a really important thing to invest in?

[00:16:27] Nathan: Most everything that we interact in as consumers is wrapped in packaging. For anyone who hasn't gone to a recycling center or a, what's called a MRF, a Material Recovery Facility, that's basically where they're bringing all your trash. And you'll see mountains of trash and it's pretty amazing. Or you can look it up online. And this is just a way to visualize how much waste we really produce.

And a lot of that is going to be our packaging that we use each day. Not all of it, but some part of it for sure. But packaging is important in our daily lives, and it's important to manage so that we have reduce pollution, we take control of our carbon impact and also reduce the usage of fossil fuels. It's not the end-all, be-all though when it comes to climate. And as a whole, packaging is just one small part of a company's carbon emissions.

When you think about your phone that you just, you know, maybe a new phone that you bought or just anything you buy from the grocery store. Now multiply that by a million, and that's the consumption that we're producing. And then multiply that all around the globe. That's why there are so many countries and now here in the US states making regulations to try and manage some of this packaging. And also the brands and the companies we rely on are also trying to take a look at it too. But of course, we should be doing more.

[00:17:48] Adam: You mentioned what we heard about companies backtracking on their,goals where they're really trying to balance this. What advice do you have to give to those brands that are feeling overwhelmed trying to balance that cost and design and sustainability?

[00:17:59] Nathan: I think a data-driven approach is going to benefit any company who is looking at sustainability, that's for sure. And in fact, without that going with your gut, it may lead you in the wrong direction. But for any company investigating or trying to go down the sustainability path, it's one step at a time. And I know the cliche about sustainability, they say it's a path, not a destination. And that's true though. 

[00:18:22] Dominique: So a lot of companies are working on this. They've been working on it for years. But I will also say that as time goes on, smaller and mid-size companies, well, they're also doing a lot on sustainability too. or anyone can do a quick analysis and that gives them another tool in their tool belt to make better decisions. Yeah, you can't improve what you don't measure.

[00:18:41] Nathan: Exactly.

[00:18:42] Dominique: I think it's also important 

if anyone's listening that is juggling various sustainability goals within their organization, waste, water, energy, you name it. Packaging is gonna have a through line with all of those things. And you touched on that a little bit earlier with if you do returnable packaging, that does touch water because if you have to use your facility to sanitize, put it back into circulation, that's a consideration.

It might be worth it, but it's a consideration. Can you share a little bit of just the kind of the list of just all the sustainability broad climate categories that you're constantly touching with packaging work?

[00:19:18] Nathan: Well, sure. I mean, carbon emissions or through water consumption, or through water quality or human impact. So you can look at that in different ways, and you might be surprised that packaging, it uses electricity, water, different fuels, it takes a lot of raw materials just like everything else does. And so each of these add to impact. 

Now companies are looking at their sustainability from, no doubt, different perspectives. That could be for reporting, for making decisions, for managing their sustainability goals. And there's gonna be different priorities placed on each of these and even within the categories, which actually comes back to trade-offs too.

Some companies have water goals and some don't. Some have carbon emissions goals, some don't. Some have specific goals on adding recycled content. Some companies have decided to move out of plastics altogether and choose something else. So each company, will have different priorities. And these will affect, how they want to go about improving. 

[00:20:18] Adam: So bringing this all together, what gives you the most hope as you look ahead in the future?

[00:20:23] Nathan: I am hopeful these days. Believe me, in my past, with climate change, it's easy to get a little bit disheartened, or thinking about biodiversity and all these things. But there's also a lot of hope because we are making improvements over time. Not only are we trying to, but we're actually making improvements. And new materials are being created every year. Companies are putting effort into looking at their packaging. States and countries are putting regulations on the book to enforce some of these things. At the same time, consumers still care about sustainability.

At the end of the day, looking at sustainability is really a mindset. Sustainability can be applied to lots of different areas, and that's what Green Umbrella is all about.

And that's what the Sustainability Summit is all about. When you're talking about packaging I think there's a lot of good improvements happening and innovation. 

Definitely. That logistics is, it's just hard to navigate because you have to be able to predict like what consumers are doing with it, what client companies are doing with it, a manufacturer does with it. And so there's, you have to just have a deep understanding of where it's going so that it comes back and that's a very hard challenge, but it's great to know that that is like a big topic for the Coalition and that you see a lot of progress happening around you. 

[00:21:37] Adam: It was for me, really interesting diving into the lifecycle assessment, what that means, what that looks like, and then kind of really stepping back and taking a look at, here's what's encompassed by the world of packaging and all the different stages of that. So thanks for diving in deep to that. Especially with the work that you do at Trayak, diving into the data analytics behind that, helping companies. How can people connect with Trayak and the work that you're doing? 

[00:21:58] Nathan: People can always connect with us at trayak.com and reach out to us if you need any help. We help primarily businesses, again, from all industries, whether they're packaging manufacturers, brand owners or anything in between, we help all sorts. So you can always reach out. We're also going to be attending the Green Umbrella's Midwest Sustainability Summit and having a panel there. And I mentioned that lifecycle assessment, some good data to support your sustainability goals, to support your decision making on new packages or new products is important. And it's also one part of the bigger puzzle. So on our panel, we'll be having panelists who are from The Recyclers or the MRFs, also package testing and also packaging manufacturing.

So we'll try and bring them all together to show the full journey that packaging takes which some consumers may not be totally familiar with. So it should be good.

[00:22:52] Dominique: Thank you so much for chatting with us. Thank you for explaining so much for what you do. Thank you for helping us see why it's so important. And I hope all of our listeners think a little differently about the packaging that they interact with every day. Because I can guarantee that either they touched packaging like probably in the last hour or will by the end of the next day.

[00:23:12] Nathan: We have in our office a wall of packaging. I promise you, once you start thinking about packaging, you'll go to the store and you're gonna start collecting things that are interesting or unique. Some people might call it trash, but I call it cool.

[00:23:24] Adam: I love it. 

[00:23:25] Dominique: Well, as always, our guests have found a unique way to champion sustainability, and we're here to put real names and stories behind the idea that no matter your background, career or interests, you really can contribute in the fight against climate change.

[00:23:37] Adam: You can find our episodes and reach us at thegreenchampions.com. If you want to stay in the loop, give us a review and follow us on your favorite podcast platform.

[00:23:45] Dominique: Our music is by Zayn Dweik. Special thanks to the Green Umbrella, their host of the annual Midwest Regional Sustainability Summit. Thanks for listening to Green Champions. We'll be digging into our sustainability success story in our next episode. 

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