Mary Cropenbaker - What Gambling Pigeons Taught Her About People

[00:00:10] Dominique: ​Welcome to Green Champions.

[00:00:11] Christy: Thanks for joining us in a conversation with real people sharing sustainability success stories.

[00:00:15] Dominique: This podcast is a platform for green champions to share their stories and plant new ideas. I'm Dominique. 

[00:00:21] Christy: And I'm Christy. 

[00:00:21] Dominique: Today, Christy and I are speaking with Mary Cropenbaker. She's the assistant solid waste manager at Hamilton County Resource. So what does that mean? She helps businesses, schools, and organizations to implement waste reduction strategies, moving them towards an ultimate goal of reaching zero waste.

And most notably for our conversations today and next week, she's piloted the 513 Green Certification Program, which is a free sustainability certification. Free. We're gonna talk about that a lot and why that's a big deal. But it encourages businesses to adopt greener practices. And today we're talking with Mary about her journey into this work.

So thanks for being here, Mary.

[00:00:56] Mary: Thank you guys so much for having me.

[00:00:57] Dominique: Mary, let's first start with where home is for you. So where'd you grow up and then we'll lead into the work that you're doing today.

[00:01:03] Mary: Sure. So I grew up outside of Maysville, Kentucky, along the Ohio River, surrounded by farmland a little bit. So spent a lot of time outside, hopping fences, running through cow pastures. But now, home is Northern Kentucky. That's where I went to high school and where I live now. So Cold Spring near Northern Kentucky University.

[00:01:21] Christy: I have to ask you because as a former farm girl too, and for maybe many who aren't aware, I think it's important. Did you ever do cow tipping or tease your friends with cow tipping?

[00:01:34] Mary: I feel like I got asked that question a lot, but no, I never tipped any cows myself. But yeah, it was definitely reoccurring topic amongst, especially once I started to move more towards the city.

[00:01:45] Christy: Gotcha. And for liability purposes, we should say that we are not saying that everybody should go try to tip a cow. You cannot come back to Green Champions and blame us for that. 

[00:01:55] Dominique: Wait, Christy, I feel like you should have to answer the same question.

[00:01:57] Christy: That's not fair. 

[00:01:58] Dominique: It's only fair. I think it's only fair if you asked Mary that we also ask you, 'cause I gotta know. 

[00:02:03] Christy: Dominique, it's absolutely a no. I have never tipped a cow. I have ridden a cow. 

[00:02:08] Mary: I've fed them. I've been dressed up as a cow for Halloween with my mom as, yeah, but no, never actually tipped one.

[00:02:15] Dominique: So is closest to nature you grew up with a really big part of how you fell in love with the environment, or was there some other catalyst in your life that was a big thing for you?

[00:02:22] Mary: I definitely feel like since I grew up spending a lot of time outside that definitely gave me a close connection to nature, but it really wasn't until, really my master's at Miami University in environmental science that I really found the passion for sustainability and the environment like I do now.

[00:02:38] Christy: What made you choose environmental science then? How did you get to that point?

[00:02:41] Mary: That is a good question and kind of a roundabout story. So I did my undergrad at the University of Kentucky, and I studied psychology there and really loved research. Thought I was going to do a PhD in a kind of animal cognition lab at the University of Kentucky. Did a senior honors thesis there.

Really loved the research aspect, but did not like the fact that I didn't then get to go out and actually be actionable and work in communities on the research that I was studying. And so after a small crisis senior year, was really looking for programs that allowed me to do more hands-on work, and that's what led me to Miami University and their Institute for Environment and Sustainability, ' cause they talked a lot about doing hands-on projects all throughout your time there.

And so I thought I was gonna work more the ecology track, but when I got there, I took one class on business sustainability and really found a passion for it, and that's what changed my direction on what I wanted to do.

[00:03:38] Dominique: Are there certain things that you've learned in psychology, I think the answer's gonna be yes, I'm wondering what those things are, that show up in your environmental work?

[00:03:45] Mary: Oh, 100%. I think having a background in research is a great background to have. A lot of the work that I do now for my work at resource, which is a solid waste district, so much of it is analyzing data and understanding kind of large problems, trying to keep material from going to the landfill, but you really have to understand how much material is going to landfill, where it's coming from, the sources.

So being able to source that data, be able to evaluate that data, and then be able to make actionable programs from it are all things that I think really, are things that I've found really useful having a background in data analytics and research, found that to be extremely beneficial.

[00:04:24] Dominique: And not everyone who studies psychology I feel like gets that experience with data. Did you gravitate towards that at a certain point? Was there one particular problem you were looking to do research on and focus on when thinking about psychology?

[00:04:36] Mary: So my undergrad thesis was around suboptimal choice behavior in pigeons, which is essentially pigeon gambling. That just happened, and there was also a dog research lab, which is not doing research in the way that I think maybe people think of when you hear that term. We essentially babysat professors' dogs, and they got to play video games on touch screens and get treats.

So it was a great gig for them and for us. We were really looking at do animals make the same sort of maladaptive choices that humans make when it comes to gambling? And it was really interesting research because with pigeons they do, which you wouldn't necessarily think that they would.

It's more beneficial for them to make sure that they're getting food all of the time, that they go to sources of food that they know are going to be predictable. And what the research found in that lab is that they really like jackpots that they'll go, "Hey, I know I'm gonna get 10 pellets of food from this one source 20% of the time, and that's great," versus getting two all the time.

So it was just really interesting research that they were doing, and I really enjoyed that aspect, and I've always loved animals, so that's what led me there at the University of

Kentucky. 

[00:05:43] Christy: Yeah. I have so many questions, but I guess I shouldn't ask all of them. That is so interesting. And maybe the last thing I would have thought you'd say.

[00:05:51] Mary: I know.

[00:05:52] Christy: Yeah. I wonder how many people have worked with gambling pigeons before. That's an interesting-- I think we might have found the title for this episode, "Gambling Pigeons," I don't know, "and Sustainability." Who knew they were connected? Something like that. That's fun, Mary.

[00:06:06] Dominique: Is there like one key learning from that research that sits with you kind of day to day, or anything that shows up in the work that you do now? We've been thinking about how incentives work, or how you motivate people, or how you even like test for what's going to work?

[00:06:21] Mary: That's a very interesting question. I think the stuff that sticks with me is more around actually being able to communicate out about that research that was so much about what we were learning seniors before going in to decide if we were going into PhD programs, and that's what I really learned the most from.

That was the first time that I think I had a lot of experience with science communication. So being able to translate, this is what the pigeons are doing, and this is how it translates to human behavior, and those connections was a really, I think, important thing for me to learn how to do early on.

And it's definitely the thing that I still work on doing the most now of trying to effectively communicate about not only interesting-- it's an interesting topic, but being able to explain it to people in a way that they'll understand and take key insights from is something that is still really important to my work today.

Which speaking of, so now you're sitting in Ohio. You are working for a waste authority. And really a big part of how one of the largest cities in Ohio thinks about resource allocation and how it reaches zero waste. But getting to Ohio was a big part of your journey as well. So how did that happen for you, and like what kind of was the big guiding light to get you where you are now? So like I mentioned, I ended up doing a master's at Miami University in environmental science. And while I was there, one of the year-long projects I did was for a solid waste district, so that's how I knew about what solid waste districts were. And then I did my practicum with the Cincinnati Zoo and their sustainability kind of program, which was such a wonderful experience because they are definitely a leader when it comes to sustainability.

I really got nice crash course in not only how an organization can use sustainability to financially better themselves, but also how it can better the animals that they're taking care of, and in the Cincinnati Zoo's case, since they're so urban, how it can really be beneficial to the community around it.

So it was this wonderful crash course of people, planet, profit all in one place. So I took and learned a lot from that experience. And then when I graduated, I worked shortly in an energy sales commission-based role, which was also really important for me in terms of development because I learned pretty quickly, I can communicate pretty effectively about the importance of sustainability in terms of the environmental benefits.

But had somehow gone through college and my master's program with really not having to take a lot of business courses. So I found the need to learn how to speak the business speak, the business case for sustainability. So I ended up going back to get an MBA through Western Kentucky University because they offered certificate in sustainable business. And that also then allowed me to get a student contract position at the US EPA in Cincinnati. And so that was a really great program. I worked in technology transfer and communication there. Unfortunately was hired right around the 2016 election, so that program lost funding fairly quickly.

But all the stars aligned because right as that kind of program lost funding and I knew I would be losing that position, a business specialist position opened up with Hamilton County ReSource, the solid waste district. So like I mentioned, I had experience with working with solid waste districts from my time at Miami. I worked with businesses when I graduated, worked with businesses through the US EPA. So it was a great combination of having worked with a solid waste district and having some business experience as well.

[00:09:46] Dominique: I also love that you mentioned Cincinnati Zoo because we had Zach on, he's now the zoo, and he shared about all the things they're doing to be innovative and almost like self-sustaining, which is so cool. and that is just a really fun place to work. You've had so many unique experiences and building blocks to even take the experience with research and psychology over to an MBA. And also you've had a lot of like animal-centric experiences, which I find really interesting. But yes then you went to the EPA, and what was your work there?

So when I was at the EPA, I worked for their Environmental Technology Innovation Clusters program, which is a- another mouthful. Essentially that work was around trying to accelerate water technology innovation. So they worked with kind of businesses and nonprofits to advance different environmental technologies when it comes whether that's water conservation or water quality.

[00:10:39] Mary: So a lot of stormwater work in the Cincinnati region. And then they also supported the work of different water technology clusters around the United States. So that essentially means like think of Silicon Valley as a technology cluster. There are ones like that kind of dedicated to water around the United States as well. So a lot of their work supported those clusters.

[00:11:00] Christy: Now the work that you do also is connected to the EPA, but in a different way, focusing on our waste conversation a little bit more. What's the biggest thing you've brought with you from the EPA perspective in your role now?

[00:11:12] Mary: Definitely again, science communication. As a solid waste district, our entire mission is to keep material from going to the landfill. However, we're largely non-regulatory, so we have to do that essentially by working with different audiences to incentivize or support waste diversion. So it's a lot of, working residents to just talk about, what happens in terms of recycling, getting them to understand what composting is and how it benefits them and our community.

And then also working with businesses to help them understand what zero waste efforts are gonna be beneficial to them, why they should be engaging in those types of practices. So again, definitely the science communication aspect of it. And then also another piece is definitely, I think, almost networking and making connections.

That was such a large piece of that program at the EPA, and that's another large piece of what I do in my role now, is just simply making connections for people of, "Hey, this is a waste stream." If it's a business that they're working to divert that they don't really know what to do with, it's essentially my role to help them find a partner that can divert that waste for them.

I like to say we act like free waste consultants. I definitely think that networking piece is another important aspect that brought from that role.

[00:12:27] Dominique: Yeah, can only imagine how much perspective you have on just the broader mission, who you're reporting to, and all the inner workings of what resources are out there. That's such a valuable experience to come into this role with. And speaking of your role, I also wanna make sure we talk about that, 'cause we're gonna dig in next episode into kind of the impact you've had with your role.

While we're talking about it, can you lay out for us the team that you manage and the mission of the organization as a whole, and the things that you're aware of and having to respond to?

[00:12:57] Mary: Sure. So like I mentioned, Hamilton County ReSource is a solid waste district. In Ohio, every county has to have or be a part of a solid waste district. We report back to the Ohio EPA, and our entire mission is just to keep material from going to the landfill. So there are eight of us in our office at Hamilton County ReSource.

I started as the business specialist and am now the assistant solid waste manager. But everyone in our office either works directly with an audience, whether that's, you know-- we have a community specialist who helps communities with contracting for recycling. We have an outreach specialist that goes out and does education for residents in different community groups.

We have a food waste diversion specialist who obviously is focused on food waste diversion and education around that. So we're all around focusing on different, helping different audiences or focusing on different waste streams where we really feel like we can make a major impact on what's going to the landfill.

[00:13:51] Christy: I have an adjacent question regarding Hamilton County Solid Waste Authority too. So connecting to your love of animals, and even though this might not be quite the area there, I know through my time at SWACO there was some interesting handling of animals that could, may or may not be pests that happen in a really environmental friendly, animal friendly way that most people don't know about.

And frankly, it's cool. Is there anything like that connected with the Hamilton County Solid Waste Authority that you might wanna share?

[00:14:24] Mary: Oh, sure. I'm wondering if you're talking about, some composting efforts, whether that's around like vermicomposting or black soldier fly. So we have definitely supported through grant funding efforts like that. Our outreach specialist, Elise, has done, specific vermicomposting classes for residents if, they live an apartment building and maybe don't have access to a backyard to compost, traditional backyard composting.

So we have some classes to make sure that people are aware of how they can do vermicomposting in their own homes and not have to do it in their backyard. We also work a lot with farms when it comes to composting manure. That's been a new one that we've had a focus on lately.

So those are a couple of the things that come top of mind to me when you talk about a connection to waste and 

animals. And then obviously looking at, we follow the EPA's food waste diversion hierarchy as well. So trying to focus on how we can get uneaten but still usable food to animal consumption is another big thing that we focus on, as well as food diversion for food rescue for people, for humans to eat as well.

But if that can't happen, then we always try and find an outlet for animal feed

as well. 

[00:15:32] Christy: I feel like the animal feed component is something that the nut hasn't been cracked, if you will. Have you had any significant learnings or learnings, they don't have to be significant, that you might share that could help others in that space trying to figure that part out?

[00:15:45] Mary: That's a really good question. It's an area of focus that's been a big area of focus for us this year actually, and I think is gonna become more of one in the next couple of years as well, as we've found some really more clean streams coming out of manufacturing and industrial waste that would be great fits for animal feed.

It's really, I think, trying to help them find a network of where that can go. We've definitely seen success with it, really out of breweries since they have such a large byproduct waste of whether it's spent grain or spent yeast, that they've had a lot of success finding kind of partner farms to provide that to.

I think there's though a really untapped kind of market when it comes to small to mid-size manufacturing where they might have a little less consistent streams. So I think, there's a role for solid waste districts to maybe step in there, see what those streams are, how consistent they are, maybe get partners together, and then get some potential farms in the room to try and make connections as well.

But I definitely think there's a large opportunity for food waste diversion for animal feed that we'll be looking more at in the next couple of years.

[00:16:51] Dominique: Another program that I think is notable and I'd love for you to share more about it is the way you've supported communities, and navigated like rewarding their efforts and their commitment. Can you share about that too?

[00:17:02] Mary: Absolutely. There are 48 communities that fall in our solid waste district territory. And we have a program called the Residential Recycling Incentive Program where we provide funding to each community based on their diversion rate. And diversion rate to us means the amount that they're recycling and/or composting.

So the higher their diversion rate, the more funding they get from us. And they can use that funding for any type of waste diversion activity. So they can use it to help pay for their recycling, curbside recycling contracts for residents. They can use it to set up yard waste, composting efforts.

Some of them use it for leaf collection trucks, anything that's going to be assisting waste diversion for their community in some way. And then we also have a target community program where we pick a couple of communities each year to provide a little more time and attention and funding to typically the communities that have a little bit lower of a diversion rate, really making sure that we're providing them a little bit more TLC to make sure that they can increase that diversion rate and get more funding as well.

[00:18:08] Dominique: No, that's awesome. And I'm just grateful for you to mention that 'cause I know that you manage a lot of stakeholders. And when thinking about the jurisdiction you're serving, I know next time we're gonna dig into 513 Green and a little more of that business incentive programming. But you don't only serve businesses, and I wanted to make sure we could talk about that side of things.

I think that could be its own champion story. We probably could dig into each program. So thank you for letting us highlight 513 Green next. But, is there anything else you wanna share about when thinking about it that way? Is there any other aspect or community you serve that you wanna mention before we get into the whole business conversation next time?

[00:18:42] Mary: I think the main thing that I would want people to know about the work that we do is that we exist to serve everyone and all audiences. We come up with programs that we hope are going to meet the needs of anyone that kind of approach us. So we have a recycling hotline, so if a resident has a question at all about waste, they can call that hotline and we'll give them a call back within 24 hours to provide them an answer.

If a business just has a question about, "I have this random waste stream, I don't know what to do with it. I would really love to start a, just a general recycling program." Again, that's what we exist to assist with, so it's always making sure that people know that we exist and are here to be a free resource for them, and we really want people to take advantage of that.

And then we're also doing, I think, a lot of work that people don't expect out of a solid waste district when it comes to food rescue and food equity. So really trying to make sure that usable food isn't going to the landfill, and we're helping try and make sure that there's the infrastructure in place for that food to get where it needs to go.

So in essence, my parting knowledge is that, a solid waste district and waste diversion is way more than just recycling, which is what I think people typically think of when they hear that term. And, we have a lot of programs that exist to support other types of waste diversion. And if you just have a question at all, that's what we're here for, so please reach out to us.

[00:20:01] Christy: I think that's also just amazing. Like it's a phone a friend immediately, but you are a resource. That's just amazing. And within 24 hours as well. And you know you're gonna get some good answers. We can already tell from you, like that you know what you're doing and your team is there.

That's so amazing. I am just so excited about what you've shared, the programs you've shared, and I can't wait to learn more in the next episode because it's so impactful. But from your standpoint and personally, what are you most proud of 'cause your work is so rewarding. So maybe just share what's been the most rewarding for you in this role?

[00:20:35] Mary: I think it goes back to why I didn't end up going to do a PhD pigeon gambling psychology. Really that every day, I get to see the true impact of the programs that we have. I get to work in the community, whether that's with a business, with a community itself, whether it's just teaching a resident about what happens to recyclables after they put it in their curbside cart.

There's a real tangible, measurable effect that we're looking at and that we're helping with, and that's really what I'm most proud of, is being able to see not just the work myself, but the work of our employees, seeing how they're able to work in, their respective audiences, and then the work of our partners. We provide a lot of grants, and that's honestly the most rewarding is when are supporting an organization that has a great mission, like a food rescue organization, and being able to see how many people they're able to serve, is definitely the most rewarding aspect of the job.

[00:21:28] Dominique: Yeah, you get to be a key contributor in letting the grassroots solutions come to life, get funding, try out their new ideas. That is just a cool spot to be in. And also I think notable because you've been in roles that have probably felt otherwise, like having been at the EPA in 2016. So I'm really curious also knowing where we sit in 2026. In a similarly challenging environment, what's giving you hope right now and where do you see opportunity, whether it's in your community or just broadly, whatever brings you hope right now?

[00:21:57] Mary: Definitely the work around food rescue and composting. Even with a different political landscape, I've really seen those efforts be resilient and even thrive in some cases I think because that work not only serves people, it is an important aspect when we're talking about organics when it comes to agriculture, that a lot of times that type of work goes across different political leanings or feelings.

It's something that people can all agree upon as important, whether that's, feeding people or making sure that we have good soil amendments is something that I have seen kind of push through any difficult aspects of the past few years. So that's been a rewarding and kind of nice thing to see.

[00:22:42] Dominique: Yeah. And that's like tangible and we can feel it, we can see it. And a nice thing for us to leave this conversation on, I think too, of just like knowing there are certain topics that are still persisting through some of the differing points of view. Thank you for also making Christy and I laugh today. I did not think pigeon gambling was gonna come up. And I'm just very grateful for the work that you're doing and for the ways that you've brought unique perspectives to the work that you're doing, power of psychology in communication, the ways that you've incorporated so many threads with animals.

 How can folks connect with you and keep learning about the work that you're doing at ReSource?

[00:23:18] Mary: There's a few different ways. You're always happy to connect with me on LinkedIn. And then our website for Hamilton County ReSource is hamiltoncountyresource.org. Or I know we're gonna talk about 513 Green next, that does have a separate website as well at 513green.com.

[00:23:33] Dominique: Perfect. 

[00:23:34] Christy: Thank you so much for sharing this and for helping people become aware of a resource they might not even know. And it could be so helpful, so I'm so excited about that. Each guest brings a different approach to sustainability.

We're here to highlight the people doing the work that inspires others because climate action takes many forms.

[00:23:50] Dominique: As always, you can find all our episodes and support the show at thegreenchampions.com. If you enjoyed the episode, you can follow, subscribe, or leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. You can find us also on LinkedIn and Instagram, @greenchampionspod. Our music is by Zayn Dweik. Thanks for listening to Green Champions. We'll be back with the second half of Mary's success story in our next episode.