Elizabeth Schuster - From Peace Corps to Environmental Economist

Welcome to Green Champions. Thanks for joining us in a conversation with real people sharing sustainability success stories. This podcast is a platform for green champions to share their stories and plant new ideas. I'm Dominique. And I'm Christy. today we are so excited to be speaking with Elizabeth Schuster.

She is the founder of Sustainable Economies, which is strategic planning, branding, and a communications firm where she's the partner and environmental economies. So thanks Elizabeth for joining us today. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for driving to the studio. 

Um, I know one of the things that we talked about when we were planning had to do with background noise and you have a pup named Gordon.

Mm. And recently. I saw that Gordon has this whisper wine thing that he's doing. Is this how Gordon's adapting to not being heard in the background, but yet getting attention? I can't believe that you remember that. Yeah. He knows that I'll get mad at him if he barks too loud. So he learned how to whisper wine.

Oh, unique skill. Oh, what kind of dog is he? He's a hound mix. Oh, so cute. So he likes to to talk to, right. He's don't, most towns like to hear the voice. He's vocal. Yeah. I love it. I love it. 

Well, I know we're both really excited today to talk about your background story before we get into more of the impact you've had in the sustainability space.

So where did you grow up? I grew up in New Hampshire. Okay. And I lived on 17 acres of land. And so, you know, a part of my sustainability origins come from. Spending hours and hours and hours in my backyard, some of the time alone, and some of the time with my brother and my neighbors building forts in the woods.

I love the forts in the woods. I, I think that there is something missing if people have never built a fort in the woods, right? Yes. It's so true. Somebody who's not built a fort in the woods, that feels really funny. It's true. I don't know what it is, but there's some bonding, working together, um, problem solving that all happens and it's just such a magical, imaginative experience.

 Are there any stories that stand out to you besides Sephora in the woods that maybe like shaped you in terms of your sustainability perspective in those early years? I used to do a lot of backpacking trips. Oh, cool. So we lived near this mountain called Mountain Ad Knock, and although everyone thinks that the mountains out west are the big mountains for New Hampshire, this is like a real mountain with it's very steep and rocky and it has a tree line.

And, um, I've continued the tradition on, actually I take my kids up that mountain as well. Uh, and then I started going hiking in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. 

 was that an entry point, the love of nature and that experience of how you then started international travel? Oh, well there is actually another early childhood connection.

My dad, uh, spent a few years living in Puerto Rico. When he was little, 'cause my grandfather was a professor and he did a sabbatical at a university in Puerto Rico. Oh. So I actually grew up hearing about my dad in those early years in Puerto Rico. So not only did I always wanna go international, but I specifically always wanted to go to Latin America.

So I think there was kind of that combining of my love for the culture and the Spanish language and my being outdoors in nature. Very cool. And I'm less familiar with some of your travel experience. What has that looked like? Is it mostly South America? Mm-hmm. Um, and like what has driven you to continue traveling?

 So in Latin America, I've been in Venezuela, Honduras, and northern Mexico. That's where I've done a lot of my research. And, you know, I'm not necessarily a traveler. I prefer to live there for periods of time. Okay. 

Uh, so after I graduated from college, I was accepted into the Peace Corps as a natural resources volunteer, and I was assigned a remote village in the mountains of Honduras.

There was no electricity. We lived in an Adobe house and we had to hike in our groceries. Wow. And, uh, I was assigned, as I said, a natural resources volunteer to plant trees in the watershed. Otherwise, uh, the soil was gonna erode. It was gonna contaminate the water. And after a year. Of being in this village.

I think we had only planted 10 trees. It was not going very well. Oh, wow. How, how does that happen? Like, um, was it number one? I guess I'm curious, was it mangroves, was it trees there? Was it further upland, um, in the process, but why only 10 trees after a year? Were they just ginormous? 

Um, it was in high, in the mountains. Okay. Yes. Very steep, high in the mountains. And, uh, well, what I learned, I can tell you what I learned. Well, wrong. Yes, please. Um, I wasn't talking to the community enough. Honestly, I wasn't making it collaborative. That's what was going wrong. And so I made a goal of talking to every household in the village.

Back then, it was only 80 houses. I actually went back recently and there's a lot more houses now. But I made a goal, I was gonna talk to everyone in the village and I did, and I interviewed them and I asked them what crops they grew. It was mostly coffee, corn and beans, some vegetables, sometimes tomatoes.

Um, and I heard stories like people were having to choose between buying their child a new pair of shoes or buying a hoe so they could have the next crop. So I realized I wasn't really incorporating their lifestyle and their own goals into it. So it came up that, uh, if you plant shade in your coffee, that's the first step you do to get certified organic.

And so we ended up creating a coffee co-op, getting certified organic, getting the higher market price. And that's when I was able to see, oh. We can find these win-wins for nature in the economy, higher market price and more trees planted. And so that was kind of the spark that changed my entire trajectory.

And this was all happening in your Peace Corps experience? Well, I did extend, so I was there for four years instead of two years. Okay. That is what, that's so pivotal. Clearly the doing the Peace Corps. What were you studying in college before that, and then how'd you decide to do the Peace Corps? I did study environmental studies.

Okay. The way my degree was structured, it's more like what a sustainability degree is today. 'cause we had economics classes and we were taught to consider the corporate case. And so that was all built into my degree. And then what was the light bulb for? Like, I think I wanna go to the Peace Corps. That's a big deal.

Yeah. Uh, well, 'cause I did a study abroad in Venezuela. And so in the Andes Mountain of Venezuela, um, the story is that I hadn't declared my major yet. So I get to the Andes Mountains of Venezuela and I see that these farmers are still growing their food by hand and with oxen, and I just was enamored with it.

Mm-hmm. Like, you mean we can still grow our own food. This is possible. And the very next day I visited one of the farmers and saw them refilling a chemical pesticide bottle mm-hmm. For drinking water. Oh geez. So basically I knew from day one that sustainability for me was gonna involve human health, the economic case, and the ecological piece.

So that's why I've kind, that's why I say I'm a sustainability specialist. 'cause I've always looked at it through those three pillars of sustainability. Well that's incredible. I think the way that you've obviously been very kind of fearless in those moments to do something. Outta your comfort zone.

I like how also you've like seen a problem and it's made you wanna like jump into action. Um, that just feels very notable. And it's also cool that you've engaged in programs that like listeners can also still engage in. Like those are things that like you took advantage of that were available to you.

 What did you do after that experience? Like where did that take you next? 

Well, uh, I did a stint in manufacturing because my degree What a different shift. It was sustainable even though it was the early two thousands and sustainability hadn't gone mainstream yet.

It was an early adopter of sustainability and manufacturing, so it was a sustainable manufacturer. That's why I chose them. They made body care products, so like sunblock and lip balm and like bombs for your body, and they sourced organic COA butter from Dominican Republic. Organic shea butter from Ghana.

So, um, so I was doing that because of sustainability and what I found after like four or five years of doing that is, uh, I was losing my mind 'cause I can't handle sitting at a desk all day. Mm-hmm. Like, I wanted to be out there doing the work, not just talking about it. Yeah. I can't imagine going from talking to, you know, 80 households and growing trees and doing community development to be right in an office.

Mm-hmm. But I can see the connection there where like. You were bringing so much awareness of what it's like on the ground. Mm-hmm. To get the ingredients, you know, to, to grow in a way that's. Support in the community. We had an episode previously with, um, uh, Amika, the beauty brand in New York, and talking about, um, how they source materials for some of their products and how thoughtful they have to be.

Mm-hmm. Um, about the communities. They're, they're impacting and that impact can be positive if they're just a little more collaborative. Yeah. So you are really echoing that same sentiment. Oh, great example. When you were working with a manufacturing company, what were some of the things you were, you were doing in that role?

And although that there were, there were the connections to the, the products in Ghana and the Dominican Republic, you still felt kind of separate from that. Could you just expand on that? I wanna understand what your experience was like there. Sure. Uh, I did inventory management. Okay. And they were growing so fast at the time that they were constantly running out of products.

And so they hired me and kind of to diagnose the problem. And I don't know, I just, even before I had learned a lot about systems thinking, I just intuitively knew that I needed to talk to everyone in every department. And so I was the first person in this role who'd go around in interview accounting and interview sales and interview customer service and interview production and interview shipping.

And, um, I was able to solve the. Running out of stock unexpectedly crisis. And so it was interesting 'cause I had my spreadsheets and I was doing the forecasting and the data analysis, but I was talking to all the people. So I liked that part of it, but I just didn't, like in the private sector, you just work with one company.

You don't partner with all your peers. But in the nonprofit world, we partner with all our peers. It's a different energy. Yeah. That's so interesting. And you've seen so many different problems you're trying to solve by. Navigating conversation, just in these few examples. Those are all so diverse in terms of the way you have to leverage communication to get the job done.

Mm-hmm. So that's so cool. Um, you also identify as an environmental economist. Mm-hmm. Um, can you tell us what that is? Sure. Um, environmental economist, it's everything to do with the economics of nature and natural resources. Um, a lot of people think of it as putting a dollar value on nature 'cause it often is, you know, if a wetland reduces flooding mm-hmm.

Then the amount of damage cost avoided, uh, is you can then say that is the value of the wetland. Uh, but I think of my role more as looking at trade-offs and making decisions under scarce resources. That really is what it is at its core, which is only getting more and more relevant. I mean, that's why a lot of the work I do is a bit contentious because everyone cares so much and there's never enough money.

But the fact that people care and keep showing up is why we keep having good projects and good work being done. Yeah. 

How is that conversation around. Being an environmental economist changed over just your time working. Yeah. So what's changed? A few things have changed. The first really big study that I did when I got outta grad school, I went to work for the Nature Conservancy.

They had me do this big study, and it was actually that example I gave putting a dollar value on a wetland because it reduced flooding for the surrounding homes. Mm-hmm. And we found out that over a certain time period it reduced flooding by $9.6 million to the homes in that community. And so there's a few things we've learned.

One thing we learned is. We thought that having that magic number in conservation and finally putting a dollar value in nature would solve all the problems. And it didn't. We realized that that's just the first thing that will get you a seat at the table. It might get you that first meeting, but it's still about building trust and communicating and the emotional connection and coalition building and strategy building.

Like you can't, you still need all the other pieces. Yeah. Uh, the other thing that's changed is there used to not be a lot of good quality data available. And now we have a lot better quality data available. So there's more people having higher quality studies showing the dollar value of nature. What do you think was the catalyst for that data piece?

Well, the famous first study that came out in 1997 was the Costanza paper, and he was the first researcher to publish on the economic value of the natural resources for the world. Hmm. And it was a very ambitious first paper and it got a lot of excitement and it got a lot of attention, but a lot of people were very skeptical 'cause there were a lot of guesses in there.

I, my personal opinion is that even though a lot of people love him and think, oh, he started all these great movements and he did, that's all true. I think it set us back a few years because the data was so qual low quality that it took a lot of time to build trust around the methods. But that was 1997.

We've come a long ways and now with. Spatial data available through GIS and so many universities and people working on this at the federal level now, it's changed a lot and now, yeah, the data quality is much higher. one of the things in sustainability that I think is so important when we're talking about the topic, no matter what we're trying to quantify or prove or show.

There are always so many assumptions or it's based on the best information we have now. Oh, yeah. And, and you can only get better as you go. Part of when you were talking about the Costanza report and some of the bad data and setting this back, that kind of made me sad. And also take a moment of like, of of, of perhaps transparency and I hope that transparency was in the report.

That's important, but the idea of, of. Getting better, building on something we know is so important. do you still agree that when we're doing reporting, um, and you're probably doing lots of different reportings in the communities and such, that at some point you have to work with the best data you have and.

Working with that data, how do you, how do you do that? So you don't run into those issues where you release a report five years later, you're like, oh goodness, I wish that, you know, that data was, I, I did one more thing. Is that, how do you balance those assumptions and the data and the quality so that you continue to move projects forward in the future?

Uh, that's a great question. It's something I think about every day. So we have developed a more collaborative process for doing research. So whenever I do an impact assessment or an evaluation for a nonprofit client, um, the entire team is developing the methodology together. And it takes a little more time, but that way we're tapping into the knowledge of everyone on the team and then people understand the assumptions that went into it.

And so I think we found a sweet spot where, you know, in universities, like a PhD, environmental economist in a university, we'll often take them two, two years to do a study. Um, a lot of our studies we do with nonprofits are six months to one year. They're a little more streamlined. Um, and we try to get.

The best quality data we can to inform your decision. So it doesn't need to be published, it just needs to be good enough to inform your decision. And I think I have made peace with the fact, I think I did have. An overly high standard when I first graduated from grad school. Mm-hmm. And I've made peace with somewhat lower quality data because A, I understand it still can help inform decisions and I've gotten better at talking about the quality.

Like if it's a rough guess, you say this is a rough estimate or it's a ballpark. Mm-hmm. And you're honest in how you talk about the level of quality. 

 I imagine it's also why you are also so successful and good at your job because you help people reframe around what they're trying to solve and help them navigate what information's available to them and looking at it critically, but not getting caught up. That is what we try to do. Thank you for capturing it so well.

 I am just curious, like, what about your skillset do you think matched up so well with. This particular kind of like, um, pathway within environmental action, like what about Elizabeth's skillset lends so well to being an economist? I do think it was my dad's early influence. Mm-hmm. That ended up putting me on this path when I was, is he an economist?

He's not, but he values accountability. Mm. Okay. And that's the underlying need or interest when I was in high school. If I'd say to my dad, I want another pair of shoes, please, please, please get 'em for me. He'd be like, why do you want the new shoes? And I'd be like, I don't know. My friend had 'em. They look cool.

Mm-hmm. And he'd be like, that is not a good enough reason. You need to be intentional about the decisions you make. Hmm. Of course, when you're that age, it's annoying. But it would take me years to realize the wisdom in his words. When I went off to college, I would call my dad and I would say, dad, dad, I learned this cool thing and therefore you need to know the X is true.

And instead of just being like, oh, Elizabeth, that's great, you're learning. My dad would be like, is that true? What's the data? And again, at the time I was like, what doesn't he just trust me? But I think he really deeply instilled in me this, this value for accountability and knowing if it's actually true and making intentional decisions.

So interestingly, after the Peace Corps experience where I discovered that win-wins for the economy in nature as possible, I got back to the US and I read a book. Called Freakonomics. Which is funny 'cause it's just a pop science book. Mm-hmm. But seeing the way that they were able to use data Yeah.

To under, to uncover unexpected. Solutions and then make their policy better. I was like, are you kidding me? You mean to tell me that, that we can use data and have better policy that actually works? Why isn't everyone doing this? Like this has been you the whole time. Yeah, so it was initially my interest in having more effective policy that's based on evidence that drove the decision.

It was later that I realized that while I am able to do quantitative analysis, I am not the best quantitative analyst out there. So I do some quantitative, but I've worked more qualitative in over time and more collaboration, and that's where my true strength is on the collaboration side. That's awesome.

One of the things that struck me when you were talking about. Manufacturing and then combine that with what you learned in the communities. And I'm going back a little bit, but, but I wanna ask, I love that idea, that aha moment a bit when you're talking about trade-offs. Mm-hmm. And I think that when we're thinking about nonprofits, 

You have to balance that so well, or it's so important to have the decisions that can make the most impact because there's always trade-offs on the limited funds and such. does that resonate with you, that theory, and then two is that. It seems like a fun jigsaw puzzle in a way.

And is that what drew you to nonprofits? I don't think I was drawn to nonprofits because of trade-offs so much as I was drawn. Drawn to nonprofits because they do more of a systems level impact. Yes. Um, but yes, that's what drew me to strategic planning is that's our chance to truly assess the trade-offs.

And a lot of people who go into nonprofits, they do it 'cause of their passion. Mm-hmm. And they think we can do everything. And, you know, the concept of opportunity cost everything you say yes to, you're giving up something else. And so that's where, when you choose strategy, uh, I like to use the data to be able to choose strategies that are more impactful and that that's how you choose what you do.

Yes. I also love that you mentioned the systems level side of things. Mm-hmm. My background is in industrial systems engineering. Oh, nice. And so that's just like where I also found a love for sustainability was I was like so drawn to this like systems level view of how things interact 

So what was your light bulb for seeing that nonprofits. Connect with that, like systems level impact, because I just wanna hear more about what the light bulb was for you to see like, oh, this is where that happens. Honestly, when I graduated from grad school, uh, I wanted to go back to Latin America and I was applying to jobs in Honduras, you know, where I'd done Peace Corps.

And it was really hard to go international because they were hiring people who were already in country. And so when I got my job at the Nature Conservancy. I didn't know that much about the Nature Conservancy, so it wasn't until I had been working there for a few years mm, that I saw through living it and experiencing it, that the nonprofits were uniquely positioned to collaborate across sectors and address things in a systemic level.

Very, very cool. What was your role at the Nature of Conservancy? Environmental economist. Oh, there you go. That's awesome. That's so, so cool. And what'd you study in grad school? Agricultural and environmental economics. Okay, okay. You were already like very focused. You knew your path and you're very focused.

Okay. But that's very cool. And I also like asked some of that too, because. Some listeners might be like, wanting your career path. Mm-hmm. And so kind of demystifying the, the, mm-hmm. The big steps that were helpful in, in, you know, starting to help you just be equipped for all these things is mm-hmm. Is so helpful.

That is amazing. Also, do you, are you bilingual? Yes. Okay. I went back to Honduras this summer. Um, my kid's father is Honduran. And so even though he's no longer, oh, you really fell in love with Honduras. I really fell in love with Honduras and I fell in love with my in-laws and that family. So my ex-husband's no longer with our family, but uh, the kid's grandfather.

Died. And so we went back to see all of my kids', um, grandmother and cousins and aunts and uncles, and it was a very beautiful trip. But, um, I actually didn't know how much of my spin, I didn't know how much of my Spanish I had retained, and I was glad to see that I still understood everything they said.

That's amazing. Yeah. Well done. I'm jealous of that. I'm so bad with new languages. That's a goal I have this year. Fun little question. Um, what is the best thing you ate in Hons? Yes. Um, fried plantains. That's a great, great answer. I know that sounds so plain, but the plantains in the US are starchy. Yes. And the plantains in Honduras have this amazing flavor.

It obviously, Honduras stole your heart 'cause you, you've traveled to many places. You've seen so many things, you've so many varied interests and for you to feel passionate about going back to that community, I think just speaks following us about something that like struck you there. Yeah. I mean, I went back to the village where I did Peace Corps.

I am just as in love with that village as I was 25 years ago. Yes. It's a deep love that has not gone away. That's amazing. I love that. What is the biggest misconception that you run into on a daily basis with people that maybe learn you're an environmental economist or hear about the impact you have with organizations?

What's just like the most common thing you kind of dispel? Myths rep about. I think it's a mix of either hearing I'm an economist and assuming I'm a macro economist, and no, I don't deal with tariffs and inflation and things like that. Or just assuming that I'm only quantitative. And I think once people get to work with me, they see that, you know, we bring values of courage.

And respecting everyone with human dignity and hearing all voices and being fair and being inclusive. And so I think if someone sees my resume or haven't talked to me a lot, they wouldn't know how deeply we value the collaborative, respectful, inclusive process that goes along with it. Choosing the Peace Corps is one big step.

Um, choosing to extend your time there. Choosing to like, also, I think I, I also really admire the way. You acknowledged that maybe the mission you came to the Peace Corps for didn't go as planned and like you learn from that and that has like been a catalyst in your career in terms of how you engage people and communities and conversations and problem solving.

And I just, I love that you embraced a learning you obviously are very impact driven and I'm excited to talk more about how you're making impact in our next episode.

Well, thank you. I'm glad all that came through. How can people connect with you or support the work that you're doing? Maybe social links or websites. Yeah, our website is sustainable economies.com. Well, I hope everybody goes and looks into what you're doing and the impact of your work. Make sure that we'll talk more about that on the next episode so people can learn about that.

And thank you for bringingyour own approach to sustainability today, because this is where we highlight people doing the work that inspires others. And you definitely did that today and showing people how climate action takes many forms. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

As always, you can find our episodes and support the show@thegreenchampions.com. If you enjoyed the episode, please follow, subscribe, and leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Stay good to with us on LinkedIn and Instagram at Green Champions Pod. Our music is by Zane Dwe. Thanks Will to Green Champions.

We'll be back next time with another sustainability success story.